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MoJoFor married Mormons: Where does OK end and sin begin?
Posted by chanson on May 21, 2008
It’s pretty clear that reproductive style “tab A in slot B” sex with your spouse (while thinking loving thoughts of your spouse) is OK, and waiting until your spouse is asleep and then sneaking into the computer room to masturbate to naughty pictures is a sin. But in fact there’s a whole lot of gray area between these two, and nobody seems to know quite where to draw the line. Of the following scenarios, which are sins? (No cheating by looking at the CHI online! )
Also — whether or not you believe in sin — which of the following actions do you think are or are not conducive to a healthy marriage, and why?
- Bringing yourself to climax manually while thinking of your spouse is OK:
- never
- if your spouse is there participating
- if you’re away from your spouse for an extended period of time
- if you’re on the phone with your spouse
- if your spouse is busy, indisposed, or not in the mood
- whenever you’re in private.
- What is OK to think about while having sex with your spouse?
- specific parts of your spouse’s body
- a kinky scenario that doesn’t involve your spouse or any other precise individual
- a celebrity or model (whom you don’t know personally)
- someone you know, such as a friend, colleague, or member of your ward
- household chores, England, or other non-sex-related subjects.
- When is private masturbation OK?
- never
- only if you’re thinking about your spouse
- only if you’ve discussed it with your spouse and your spouse is OK with it
- while thinking about kinky scenarios that don’t involve specific individuals
- while thinking about celebrities or models (whom you don’t know personally)
- while looking at pictures of naked people or reading/viewing erotic materials
- while fantasizing about someone you know in person
- while fantasizing about someone you’ve met online
- Suppose you wake up in the middle of the night and you’re dying of horniness. Your spouse is asleep. What should you do?
- wake your spouse up to persuade him/her to have sex with you
- try to go back to sleep and hope to have an erotic dream
- try to go back to sleep, but keep tossing and turning until your spouse eventually wakes up and has sex with you
- sing a hymn and/or pray for God to make you feel less aroused
- masturbate in bed trying not to wake your spouse up
- masturbate in bed while fondling your spouse
- go in another room to masturbate (in order to avoid disturbing your spouse)
- go to the computer room and look up some naughty pictures and/or stories on the Internet and masturbate
- try to think of ways to get your rhythm and your spouse’s rhythm synched better.
- Suppose you discover you’re attracted to one of your colleagues. Which response is OK?
- quit your job or try to get transferred to another department
- try to get your colleague fired or transferred
- try to focus on your job better or on other hobbies or on your relationship with your spouse in hopes that you’ll be less tempted by your colleague
- indulge in sexual fantasies in private while keeping your public conduct completely professional
- tell your spouse about your crush
- flirt subtly with your colleague
- if the subject comes up naturally in conversation, tell your colleague about your attraction, but insist that nothing will come of it since you’re married
- if the subject comes up naturally in conversation, tell your colleague about your attraction, but insist that nothing will come of it since you’re married, but secretly hope that your colleague will seduce you beyond your power to resist
- if your colleague is interested, engage in a little kissing or foreplay as long as you agree not to go all the way
- discuss the situation with your spouse and go ahead with anything that your spouse agrees is OK
- an affair is okay as long as it’s not in your spouse’s face — what your spouse doesn’t know won’t hurt him/her
- anything goes, regardless of your spouse’s knowledge or consent
What do you think? Any opinions? (Note that each question may have multiple responses.)
May 21, 2008 at 2:13 pm
p.s. I’ve written some additional commentary on this on my regular blog.
May 21, 2008 at 4:59 pm
1) B, C, D, E
2) A
3) E, F, G
4) B, F, G
5) C, D, F, G
I think?
May 21, 2008 at 5:11 pm
[...] With that in mind, let’s consider both sides without dismissing one as a priori wrong. Masturbation (with or without porn) may be (1) the root problem (2) a symptom of another problem, or (3) not actually a problem. I’ve written a couple of new posts to help spark a discussion between you and your spouse which may help if you’re both willing to agree to read them with an open mind and consider them: Fidelity, Autonomy: Where does your body end and your spouse’s begin? and For married Mormons: Where does OK end and sin begin? [...]
May 21, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Married people should recognize that healthy sexuality is both a shared and private phenomenon. As such, some degree of individual sexual experience (i.e. masturbation, fantasizing, etc.) is normal and healthy for the married individual. Even better, the dividends from the individual sexual experiences extend to benefit the couple as well, in a variety of ways.
Trust and Communication are the two most important ingredients for a “shared” (i.e. two people) sexual relationship. That goes double for “private” sexual experiences if one is in a committed relationship.
So with trust and communication as a foundation, for questions 1 - 4, I’d extend considerable leeway depending on the sexual idiosyncracies of the couple.
Question 5 is more complicated because it involves a third person. From a purely mathematical standpoint, establishing trust, communication, and aligning the sexual proclivities of three people is more difficult than two. So while the same basic principles apply, the risk and potential downside are much greater. Personally, I wouldn’t invite a third person into my relationship, but if one has a strong sense of confidence (in both oneself, and in the relationship), I think it is okay and healthy (and sometimes fun) to discuss when/if one is attracted to others.
May 21, 2008 at 8:50 pm
My husband and I were just talking about this last night! Until recently (like after reading the threads here on masturbation) I really thought it was off limits. So, I’m changing my view a little and I think it’s for the best.
So, I’ll agree with Matt that it depends on the couple’s sexual preferences. And, I think this would be a good quiz to take as a couple.
The last one is obvious for me, stay away from temptation.
One question you didn’t ask, is it okay for a spouse to masturbate to naughty pictures of their spouse?
I think we should give women a break, it’s hard to be aroused with lots of young children, birth control, etc. It’s totally different for men.
Let’s have a post about types of things that get women in the mood. (like having DH do the dishes)
May 21, 2008 at 10:44 pm
1. All of the above, except for A.
2. A, but I don’t think much while having sex. See this highly amusing post.
3. C. Maybe. See #2 where I go brain dead for sex.
4. E. Then I. Obviously, given #2 and 3, not at the same time.
5. I don’t see this happening to me because I am pretty committed in my hermit-ness, because I work at home (for aforementioned reason), and because I have too much crap going on in my head to make room for Man #2.
May 22, 2008 at 2:08 am
Rather than answer individually, my answer is that it’s OK to masturbate as long as you are not doing it in lieu of your sexual relationship with your spouse. The best scenario is to discuss it with your spouse and come to an agreement on limits. This is especially important where the spouses have widely different libidos.
In a general moral sense, I don’t think anything is off limits sexually between two consenting adults. Once it physically goes beyond that is where it becomes problematic. If a spouse truly and fully consents for the other to have an affair and/or group sex, I find nothing morally wrong with that. The problem with both is “consent”–a spouse may consent out of fear for losing their marriage, fear of being abused or be, well, nuts. (On the other hand, even for the most innocent of stuff, a spouse may be vindictive and controlling, using sex as a weapon–however, that still doesn’t excuse infidelity, even if it does explain it.)
May 22, 2008 at 2:55 am
Jessawhy - seriously, hubby doing dishes turns you on? I have seen zero correlation in my own marriage. What’s the trick? Doing them occasionally so there’s a noticeable difference? Or every day? I’m not a believer - this seems manipulative to me.
May 22, 2008 at 3:42 pm
By the way, the above are two different Joes, though the 2:44 am one said the same thing I was thinking. Perhaps we are twins separated at birth. I’ll become Joe Too.
May 22, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Joe:
I’m with Jessawhy on this one, I think. Honestly it does turn me on when my spouse helps around the house because it lifts my daily burden, helps me relax, etc. Because much of my life is centered around caring for domestic tasks and I constantly have a ‘to-do’ list of things that need to get done in order to keep things running smoothly, the more help I get with that, the more time and energy I have to invest in our relationship and/or sex. This was especially true when my kids were young during my SAHM years and I was _exhausted_ by the burden of caring for the little ones all day long.
A clean house is a mighty fine aphrodesiac. Seriously. There’s even a book about it.
May 22, 2008 at 5:19 pm
I’ve noticed the clean-the-house trick works as well. I don’t know if it is an aphrodisiac, or just helps her relax more, or is my reward for a job well done. Probably all of the above.
May 22, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Lots of surprising answers!
To play fair, I’ll list off my own choices:
1: b,c,d,e,f
2: a,b,c,d,e
3: d,e,f,g,h
4: Depending on the situation, any of those choices may be appropriate. (Except that d is unlikely to help)
5: c & d only
That’s a fascinating question! To me, that would be equivalent to masturbating while thinking of your spouse. Do you think there’s a difference?
May 22, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Great post! A discussion that my wife & I have been having lately is about shaving some or all of your pubic hair? Is it wrong because it is thought to have originated in pornography? What are your thoughs?
May 22, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Really, what hasn’t originated in (or been popularized by) pornography?
May 22, 2008 at 11:40 pm
I loved the shaved look. When my wife learned that, she was astonished and then one day surprised me. It’s hard to express how hot that was (not just the look, but that she did it for me.) Unfortunately, she found it too itchy.
As for the masturbating to naughty pictures of their spouse, I suspect most spouses would object more to pictures being taken of them than anything else.
May 23, 2008 at 2:58 am
So much sexual knowledge has come from porn, it’s part of our enlightened age. I do think there are valid arguements against porn, such as the corruption of the “actors”, producers, etc, but I have no patience for nonsensical anti-porn rants.
May 23, 2008 at 3:14 am
Originated, no. That’s an Arab custom dating back centuries for girls entering a harem as a cleansing measure, since one (evolutionary) function of pubic hair is to trap scent (more specifically, pheromones).
I don’t even know that I’d go so far as to say that it was popularized by porn. I’ve heard LDS women of my mother’s generation say that they shaved because for them, it was practical to do so.
I also find it practical. Sexy? Yes. Practical? Absolutely.
May 23, 2008 at 4:49 am
It strikes me as rather odd that my answer to #5 might be completely different from that of my polygynous gggfather and various other 19th century Church leaders….
June 2, 2008 at 2:03 am
I have a question about #4: One thing that is not listed as an answer, but that I know happens in some marriages, is when a spouse wakes up in the middle of the night and starts going at it with his/her (let’s be honest - I’ve only ever heard of the husband doing this) spouse WITHOUT FIRST WAKING THE SPOUSE. A girl I know got pregnant this way, and she seems to think it’s a humorous story - she woke up because her husband was already on his way, and now she’s pregnant, lalala, hahaha! I think it’s completely disgusting and practically rape. I’d like to know what other people think about it - is this totally normal and something that married people are just okay with?
June 2, 2008 at 4:46 am
I didn’t think of this one because it didn’t occur to me. I think that merely moving us both into position would wake me up, but maybe I’m a light sleeper.
It’s possible for such a thing to be rape, but it depends on the couple and their mutual understanding/agreement about what sorts of advances are desired or wanted vs. not wanted. For example, your friend might have granted her husband standing permission for this, in which case it’s consensual. Interestingly, this is apparently a popular enough fetish to have come up once on Savage Love. If they’d talked about this possibility in advance and she made it clear that she’s into it, then I don’t see a problem.
June 2, 2008 at 6:15 pm
I don’t know the details, but my understanding was that this was not something that was ever actually discussed - it was just that he wanted to get his jollies and that was that. I guess if she’s okay with it (and she did seem to be) it’s maybe not a problem, but I still feel blech about it. Just the idea that he thought he was entitled to it…But maybe that’s just because I’ve never been in a long-term relationship.
June 2, 2008 at 6:42 pm
I get your revulsion. It could be that he didn’t bother to take the few seconds to wake her up because he just didn’t care about her perspective — only his own pleasure. If that’s what it was, then, yeah, definitely disturbing to say the least.
I just feel like there’s more than one possible interpretation here. A married couple can have a subtle understanding about what’s okay and what’s not okay, and it’s very possible that he had good reason to think that she would like it (since apparently she did), even if in another relationship this wouldn’t have been okay.
June 2, 2008 at 8:23 pm
June 2, 2008 at 8:28 pm
June 2, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Chanson - yeah, you’re right that there’s more than one way to look at it. Really, I don’t think she ENJOYED it (she’s never come right out and said it, but I get the impression that she’s completely indifferent to sex), but she apparently didn’t have a problem with it, to the point where she thought it was a humorous story. So I guess there must be some sort of agreement, either tacit or explicit. It still grosses me out, but I guess that’s just a difference of opinion - she’s ok with it and I wouldn’t be.
June 5, 2008 at 7:36 pm
I know my husband would be incredibly turned on if I “started” on him while he was asleep. He would love to wake up in the middle of it all. But if he did it to me I would feel violated. It’s cliche to blame it on the difference of sexes but I do think it is exactly that.
June 5, 2008 at 7:42 pm
I can’t say whether I would or wouldn’t like it. Likely, half the time I’d be annoyed and half the time I’d be good to go. Couldn’t say because DH wouldn’t think to do it. (He has a few health problems that make this part of our life together difficult.)
June 5, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Personally, I don’t think it would bother me. But like I said, I’m a light sleeper, so after the slightest advance I wake up sufficiently to give a clear “yea” or “nay”, settling the question.
June 6, 2008 at 12:25 am
Waking me up in the middle of the night is one of the most common ways we have sex. My sex life is boring, but very perfunctory. We are kind of in a slump because of many reasons…
anyway, I wake up to find him down on me… (it’s a nice feeling to wake up to) I finish within 5 minutes and then he finishes within 1 minute. lol
Simple, easy and we both go back to sleep.
June 6, 2008 at 5:53 pm
This whole one-person-initiates-sex-while-the-other-person-is-still-asleep idea dates back to caveman times. What’s the big deal? Whether awake or asleep, sex is usually initiated by one person making a move on the other. That move is either reciprocated, or it is rebuffed. It is a dance, a game. Must sex always begin with a formal invitation or request, followed by acceptance… like a tea party?
We’ve had “Asleep Sex” dozens of times in my marriage. It just means one person is asleep when sex is initiated. About 80% of the time the sexual advance is reciprocated; about 20% of the time it is rebuffed with an “I’m sorry, I’m just way too tired.”
Unless one person is seriously medicated or drunk, and can’t wake up, what’s the big deal? (And even then, we could care less, but that is just us… and I realize others may feel differently.)
That the word “rape” would even come up seems bizarre to me.