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	<title>Comments on: Unrealistic Expectations?</title>
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	<description>Celebrating Mormon Sexuality</description>
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		<title>By: Sunday in Outer Blogness: It&#8217;s All in Your Head Edition! &#124; Main Street Plaza</title>
		<link>http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/unrealistic-expectations/#comment-1041</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunday in Outer Blogness: It&#8217;s All in Your Head Edition! &#124; Main Street Plaza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 23:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/?p=37#comment-1041</guid>
		<description>[...] to Angel Falling Softly. (If you need a refresher on Angel Falling Softly see here, and look here and here for our earlier discussions of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to Angel Falling Softly. (If you need a refresher on Angel Falling Softly see here, and look here and here for our earlier discussions of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: RIchard Flores</title>
		<link>http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/unrealistic-expectations/#comment-1038</link>
		<dc:creator>RIchard Flores</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 21:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/?p=37#comment-1038</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s unfortunate that people seem to be focused purely in the physical and the potential for harm in an unsupervised environment.  Let&#039;s face it, the guys are intimidated by Edward&#039;s looks, not the other attributes.  Now, the problem is that girls and boys are typically NOT taught the dynamics of relationship development from their parents, so they get corrupt and often perverted concepts from secular sources!  They are NOT taught the details of the difference between secular concepts of love, which is more closely related to lust, and the spiritual connections of the transcendental, which is the source of intimacy!  They are not taught the sequence of escalating friendship into a romantic relationship because with their version it all happens too fast and enters the physical far too quickly!  We understand the cycle of stages of relationship development; infatuation, conflict/role determination, friendship, love, and finally, if you wait long enough...intimacy!  Sadly, this process is typically complicated with the complexities of premature physical interactions!  This is the &quot;dark&quot; side that the &quot;good people&quot; refuse to discuss with the &quot;good girls&quot; but are physical realities!  We must be willing to address the realities of physical desire and integrate it with the understanding of the spiritual relationship development.  If relationships escalate to the physical prematurely, they always fail because their is not sufficient emotional commitment and connection to deal with the complex emotions that result.  The key is to learn to overcome animal urges with intellect.  As rational people of honor, we understand the realities, practicalities, AND most importantly, the difficulties associated with the restraint of our physical desires at 17!

The REAL question is: &quot;Does this literature encourage investigating restraint or giving into animal urges?&quot;  I think that the answer is clear...It realistically addresses the challenges of sexual desire while clearly recognizing that there is a path of honor and righteousness where our honor provides the restraint to behave as God intents!  We can try to intellectualize this with long dissertations on Agency, but how does that help the young to restrain their behavior and respect their bodies?  In truth, it doesn&#039;t!  They are visual learners and can understand the use of free will to demonstrate their love through restraint, sacrifice, and honorable choices!  It is easy to over-intellectualize these books and try to turn this into an exercise in futility, or better yet, use these to visually teach the young to restrain their desires and live a life of spiritual and physical intimacy that provides eternal happiness that those in the secular world will never enjoy!

As the honorable and responsible father of four young adults, I have successfully used these books to enhance the teaching of my sons and daughters about the values of overcoming our physical urges and using our free will for good.  My sons better understand the practicalities of applying the concepts of honor and respect to ALL of their decisions wrt respecting their dates and restraint from physical contact.  My daughters better understand their roles in demanding appropriate behavior and respect from their dates.  It has helped to clarify what I have taught them all along.  As such, these books are a wonderful teaching visuals for young adults.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s unfortunate that people seem to be focused purely in the physical and the potential for harm in an unsupervised environment.  Let&#8217;s face it, the guys are intimidated by Edward&#8217;s looks, not the other attributes.  Now, the problem is that girls and boys are typically NOT taught the dynamics of relationship development from their parents, so they get corrupt and often perverted concepts from secular sources!  They are NOT taught the details of the difference between secular concepts of love, which is more closely related to lust, and the spiritual connections of the transcendental, which is the source of intimacy!  They are not taught the sequence of escalating friendship into a romantic relationship because with their version it all happens too fast and enters the physical far too quickly!  We understand the cycle of stages of relationship development; infatuation, conflict/role determination, friendship, love, and finally, if you wait long enough&#8230;intimacy!  Sadly, this process is typically complicated with the complexities of premature physical interactions!  This is the &#8220;dark&#8221; side that the &#8220;good people&#8221; refuse to discuss with the &#8220;good girls&#8221; but are physical realities!  We must be willing to address the realities of physical desire and integrate it with the understanding of the spiritual relationship development.  If relationships escalate to the physical prematurely, they always fail because their is not sufficient emotional commitment and connection to deal with the complex emotions that result.  The key is to learn to overcome animal urges with intellect.  As rational people of honor, we understand the realities, practicalities, AND most importantly, the difficulties associated with the restraint of our physical desires at 17!</p>
<p>The REAL question is: &#8220;Does this literature encourage investigating restraint or giving into animal urges?&#8221;  I think that the answer is clear&#8230;It realistically addresses the challenges of sexual desire while clearly recognizing that there is a path of honor and righteousness where our honor provides the restraint to behave as God intents!  We can try to intellectualize this with long dissertations on Agency, but how does that help the young to restrain their behavior and respect their bodies?  In truth, it doesn&#8217;t!  They are visual learners and can understand the use of free will to demonstrate their love through restraint, sacrifice, and honorable choices!  It is easy to over-intellectualize these books and try to turn this into an exercise in futility, or better yet, use these to visually teach the young to restrain their desires and live a life of spiritual and physical intimacy that provides eternal happiness that those in the secular world will never enjoy!</p>
<p>As the honorable and responsible father of four young adults, I have successfully used these books to enhance the teaching of my sons and daughters about the values of overcoming our physical urges and using our free will for good.  My sons better understand the practicalities of applying the concepts of honor and respect to ALL of their decisions wrt respecting their dates and restraint from physical contact.  My daughters better understand their roles in demanding appropriate behavior and respect from their dates.  It has helped to clarify what I have taught them all along.  As such, these books are a wonderful teaching visuals for young adults.</p>
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		<title>By: It&#8217;s Time to Play: Anti-Mormon&#8230; Or Not? &#124; Main Street Plaza</title>
		<link>http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/unrealistic-expectations/#comment-1033</link>
		<dc:creator>It&#8217;s Time to Play: Anti-Mormon&#8230; Or Not? &#124; Main Street Plaza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 17:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/?p=37#comment-1033</guid>
		<description>[...] 9. Twilight: Written by a Mormon and superficially &#8220;clean,&#8221; this novel promotes highly questionable ideas about relationships for impressionable young Mormon girls. It has been called &#8220;porn for women&#8221; by more people than I can count. (see the discussion here.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 9. Twilight: Written by a Mormon and superficially &#8220;clean,&#8221; this novel promotes highly questionable ideas about relationships for impressionable young Mormon girls. It has been called &#8220;porn for women&#8221; by more people than I can count. (see the discussion here.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: chanson</title>
		<link>http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/unrealistic-expectations/#comment-1016</link>
		<dc:creator>chanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:39:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/?p=37#comment-1016</guid>
		<description>Sarah -- That&#039;s a good point if I&#039;m reading you right (to summarize: Edward&#039;s positive qualities -- caring, loyal, protective, compassionate -- &lt;i&gt;shouldn&#039;t be unrealistic&lt;/i&gt; ) expectations for men.

But I think Edward&#039;s character goes a step beyond a realistic level of caring and compassion.  I think the comment I quoted in the article sums it up: &quot;He’s dangerous (a vampire!) but not really (he’s good!). He is hot but doesn’t care. He’s rich but doesn’t care and doesn’t have to work for it. He is powerful but is helpless before Bella’s charms after only a glimpse of her. He is attentive and loyal and thinks only of her.&quot;  Additionally, stuff like the fact that he snuck into her house to watch her sleep is the sort thing girls should understand is a red flag for someone who is potentially dangerous, not something that should be held up as a romanitic ideal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah &#8212; That&#8217;s a good point if I&#8217;m reading you right (to summarize: Edward&#8217;s positive qualities &#8212; caring, loyal, protective, compassionate &#8212; <i>shouldn&#8217;t be unrealistic</i> ) expectations for men.</p>
<p>But I think Edward&#8217;s character goes a step beyond a realistic level of caring and compassion.  I think the comment I quoted in the article sums it up: &#8220;He’s dangerous (a vampire!) but not really (he’s good!). He is hot but doesn’t care. He’s rich but doesn’t care and doesn’t have to work for it. He is powerful but is helpless before Bella’s charms after only a glimpse of her. He is attentive and loyal and thinks only of her.&#8221;  Additionally, stuff like the fact that he snuck into her house to watch her sleep is the sort thing girls should understand is a red flag for someone who is potentially dangerous, not something that should be held up as a romanitic ideal.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/unrealistic-expectations/#comment-1015</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:20:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/?p=37#comment-1015</guid>
		<description>Ok People, Look here&#039;s what im reading from these comments is that its unrealistic for men to be caring, loyal, protective, compassionate, these are all qualities that Edward has.  What are you all talking about? Of course its realistic you all believe in agency right.  Well your playing right in to societies hands that says that menly are suposed to be hard, tough and god forbid they be nurturing but honestly I think that is unrealistic.  Men can be that way if they choose its compeletly possible.  Its possible for men to be dominantly protective in a nurturing way.  This negative point of view towards how great love can be is downright depressing which its no wonder why so many people are drawn to the books they are desperate for that connection again its that connection with others in their life they want and maybe they dont want to be sucked into think its pointless.  Maybe those who think it is are really the vampires.  Im sorry but I can understand.  But i believe if more men set their hearts on qualities such as these set that as their role model then more would make it a reality.  its how it was meant to be but as a whole as people we are so oblivious to how that really feels after all isnt mormonism supposed to teach us to strive for these loving qualities anyways?  It is possible but people have to make it a reality, create it.  Thats what we are here for to create!  To say its unrealistic sure shows how much faith there is in the human race to love and love beautifully.  After all the whole vampire idea of needing blood is the symbol of craving for a deeper connection which is completely human. We&#039;ve all wanted a deeper connection.  I dont believe someone who says they dont.  so is it realistic.  It is if you want it to be.  Edward and Bellas story is not one thats just easy, they do go through trials and they do work to keep it.  They go through doubts just as people in human realationships.  They long to be with eachother for eternity just as mormons,  They worry about family life, they worry about their souls and forgiveness.  Apparently if their relationship isnt a reality then neither are mormon ideals!  Which I&#039;m pretty sure the prophets would disagree with mormon ideals being non reality.  They&#039;re are so many points to Stephanies books that are completely relatable and thats why are so drawn to them its probably one of the few ways they can express they&#039;re deepest feelings is through her books.  Its a book about intamacy.  Isnt everything in life always about intamacy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok People, Look here&#8217;s what im reading from these comments is that its unrealistic for men to be caring, loyal, protective, compassionate, these are all qualities that Edward has.  What are you all talking about? Of course its realistic you all believe in agency right.  Well your playing right in to societies hands that says that menly are suposed to be hard, tough and god forbid they be nurturing but honestly I think that is unrealistic.  Men can be that way if they choose its compeletly possible.  Its possible for men to be dominantly protective in a nurturing way.  This negative point of view towards how great love can be is downright depressing which its no wonder why so many people are drawn to the books they are desperate for that connection again its that connection with others in their life they want and maybe they dont want to be sucked into think its pointless.  Maybe those who think it is are really the vampires.  Im sorry but I can understand.  But i believe if more men set their hearts on qualities such as these set that as their role model then more would make it a reality.  its how it was meant to be but as a whole as people we are so oblivious to how that really feels after all isnt mormonism supposed to teach us to strive for these loving qualities anyways?  It is possible but people have to make it a reality, create it.  Thats what we are here for to create!  To say its unrealistic sure shows how much faith there is in the human race to love and love beautifully.  After all the whole vampire idea of needing blood is the symbol of craving for a deeper connection which is completely human. We&#8217;ve all wanted a deeper connection.  I dont believe someone who says they dont.  so is it realistic.  It is if you want it to be.  Edward and Bellas story is not one thats just easy, they do go through trials and they do work to keep it.  They go through doubts just as people in human realationships.  They long to be with eachother for eternity just as mormons,  They worry about family life, they worry about their souls and forgiveness.  Apparently if their relationship isnt a reality then neither are mormon ideals!  Which I&#8217;m pretty sure the prophets would disagree with mormon ideals being non reality.  They&#8217;re are so many points to Stephanies books that are completely relatable and thats why are so drawn to them its probably one of the few ways they can express they&#8217;re deepest feelings is through her books.  Its a book about intamacy.  Isnt everything in life always about intamacy?</p>
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		<title>By: C. L. Hanson</title>
		<link>http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/unrealistic-expectations/#comment-832</link>
		<dc:creator>C. L. Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/?p=37#comment-832</guid>
		<description>p.s. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=1972&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; the fMh post in question, and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/07/13/gail-collins-on-twilight.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; yet another good take on the obvious porn parallel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s. <a href="http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=1972" rel="nofollow">here&#8217;s</a> the fMh post in question, and <a href="http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/07/13/gail-collins-on-twilight.htm" rel="nofollow">here&#8217;s</a> yet another good take on the obvious porn parallel.</p>
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		<title>By: C. L. Hanson</title>
		<link>http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/unrealistic-expectations/#comment-831</link>
		<dc:creator>C. L. Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:23:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/?p=37#comment-831</guid>
		<description>There are few subjects out there more candy-fun-entertaining than deconstructing &lt;i&gt;Twilight&lt;/i&gt;!!!

Every reader of this blog has probably already seen the fMh thread I got these links from, but I have to tell you &lt;a href=&quot;http://borrowedlight.blogspot.com/2008/07/why-i-think-twilight-sucks-and-other.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this post&lt;/i&gt; really nailed it, and &lt;a href=&quot;http://raecarson.livejournal.com/172950.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this one&lt;/i&gt; isn&#039;t too far behind... ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are few subjects out there more candy-fun-entertaining than deconstructing <i>Twilight</i>!!!</p>
<p>Every reader of this blog has probably already seen the fMh thread I got these links from, but I have to tell you <a href="http://borrowedlight.blogspot.com/2008/07/why-i-think-twilight-sucks-and-other.html" rel="nofollow">this post really nailed it, and </a><a href="http://raecarson.livejournal.com/172950.html" rel="nofollow">this one isn&#8217;t too far behind&#8230; <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </a></p>
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		<title>By: The Carnal Bite &#171; The Visitors&#8217; Center</title>
		<link>http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/unrealistic-expectations/#comment-187</link>
		<dc:creator>The Carnal Bite &#171; The Visitors&#8217; Center</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 20:45:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/?p=37#comment-187</guid>
		<description>[...] a nice Mormon girl like you doing writing about vampires?&#8221; &#8212; says Jana Riess. So Stephenie Meyer isn&#8217;t the only one. Is the Mormon teen vampire romance now the new Jack [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a nice Mormon girl like you doing writing about vampires?&#8221; &#8212; says Jana Riess. So Stephenie Meyer isn&#8217;t the only one. Is the Mormon teen vampire romance now the new Jack [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/unrealistic-expectations/#comment-105</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 18:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/?p=37#comment-105</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s no question in my mind that one can be fairly critical of a book one has not read, particularly when criticism is drawn from the way a book affects readers. Sure, it may be more accurate to say that my criticism is of the reader not the book, but I&#039;m also sure we can agree that the reader is at least half of what constitutes the meaning of a book and that there&#039;s a human tendancy to  prefer to blame the book than the reader. The idea over the person. So I criticize the book.

Perhaps I shoud have added that I think everything we read has an impact on our worldview, including our views of other people, and things we read repetetively even more so. Again, this does not mean that one need take the character of Edward as a whole and seek to pattern-match it in the real world and I don&#039;t think very many would do this. Rather, one need only to selectively take the patterns in Edward&#039;s character that one adores or finds appealing while ignoring the rest. You know, ignoring things like cold lips and abusive obsessesions, etc.

And maybe this selectiveness is where the real problem lies. I don&#039;t think my daughters want to find a vampire-like character in the real world, even a &quot;veggie-vampire&quot; like Edward, not literally at least. But they do seem willing to ignore/not notice the worst aspects of Edward in deference to his best aspects. And one of the wost aspects of Edward, in my opinion, is that he has a surreal collection of best aspects.

I don&#039;t really know how to put this into words. The best I can do is to say that Edward is an irrational character on the whole while containing much that is rational. His surreal collection of best aspects being attached to a collection of horrifying aspects seems to have the affect of making the surreal seem real and attainable by contrast. As if, by having the opportunity to throw-out the obvious fiction, the mind finds reason for accepting as real what it might have otherwise rejected.

There&#039;s certainly more to it. But I think we&#039;re often puzzled by the ability of an idea to bewitch the human mind. And in my experience the bewitching follows a proccess that seems utterly reasonable to the mind. But the surest sign of such a process my be the arguement that you have to read the book to &quot;get it&quot;, to be critical of it, to be listened to by others who &quot;get it&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s no question in my mind that one can be fairly critical of a book one has not read, particularly when criticism is drawn from the way a book affects readers. Sure, it may be more accurate to say that my criticism is of the reader not the book, but I&#8217;m also sure we can agree that the reader is at least half of what constitutes the meaning of a book and that there&#8217;s a human tendancy to  prefer to blame the book than the reader. The idea over the person. So I criticize the book.</p>
<p>Perhaps I shoud have added that I think everything we read has an impact on our worldview, including our views of other people, and things we read repetetively even more so. Again, this does not mean that one need take the character of Edward as a whole and seek to pattern-match it in the real world and I don&#8217;t think very many would do this. Rather, one need only to selectively take the patterns in Edward&#8217;s character that one adores or finds appealing while ignoring the rest. You know, ignoring things like cold lips and abusive obsessesions, etc.</p>
<p>And maybe this selectiveness is where the real problem lies. I don&#8217;t think my daughters want to find a vampire-like character in the real world, even a &#8220;veggie-vampire&#8221; like Edward, not literally at least. But they do seem willing to ignore/not notice the worst aspects of Edward in deference to his best aspects. And one of the wost aspects of Edward, in my opinion, is that he has a surreal collection of best aspects.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t really know how to put this into words. The best I can do is to say that Edward is an irrational character on the whole while containing much that is rational. His surreal collection of best aspects being attached to a collection of horrifying aspects seems to have the affect of making the surreal seem real and attainable by contrast. As if, by having the opportunity to throw-out the obvious fiction, the mind finds reason for accepting as real what it might have otherwise rejected.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s certainly more to it. But I think we&#8217;re often puzzled by the ability of an idea to bewitch the human mind. And in my experience the bewitching follows a proccess that seems utterly reasonable to the mind. But the surest sign of such a process my be the arguement that you have to read the book to &#8220;get it&#8221;, to be critical of it, to be listened to by others who &#8220;get it&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jana</title>
		<link>http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/unrealistic-expectations/#comment-104</link>
		<dc:creator>Jana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 18:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://visitorscenter.wordpress.com/?p=37#comment-104</guid>
		<description>Chanson:
I hope you do keep posting on Twilight.  I&#039;m eager to hear what you have to say!  :}</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chanson:<br />
I hope you do keep posting on Twilight.  I&#8217;m eager to hear what you have to say!  :}</p>
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